Thursday, September 11, 2008

Questions to ask

This is a section that I have been wondering about.  I don't want to bias you with my thoughts so I am going to start with a free form questionnaire, post it and then go back and edit it later.  I am going to start from ground up, but before I do learn about the company.  How long they've been in business, are they the actual manufacturer, what is their credit rating (tell them you're going to check the finalists with Dun and Bradstreet.  When your church puts a deposit down it almost always will not get it back if the company folds.  I have seldom heard of it happening.  So if you've put half down on a $50,000 project the church is out $25,000.  Be careful about the company.
  1. How do you anchor your pews to a concrete floor (use a wood floor if that is appropriate)?
  2. How do you conceal the anchor holes?
  3. Do you anchor the intermediate supports or just the end supports?  Most just anchor ends, but can anchor intermediate supports.
  4. What is the shape of your end supports the base?  Most have a slight curve so the outside edges are the primary contact with the floor.  Flat pews might rock if the floor is not level.
  5. Do you scribe or use feet on your intermediate supports?
  6. How are your intermediate supports constructed - solid oak or veneer over what? How is the oak glued together - face-to-face, edge-to-edge.  How many plies is it?  You can tell this from the samples, if that is what the company is quoting. 
  7. If they answer engineered wood ask about the specs on it.  If they answer solid wood ask what exactly is it?  If they answer solid oak ask what species and how is it glued.  A side note here - I have seen companies call particle board solid oak because they said that the particle board they used was only from oak trees.  I have seen companies substitute ash for oak, so make sure the wood is specified in the contract.  
  8. How thick are your intermediate support and your ends?
  9. How is the seat attached to the ends?  How deep is the routing?  
  10. How are the ends constructed.  Is there veneer?  How are the solid pieces of oak in the end glued together?  
  11. How is your seat pan constructed?  
  12. Is there a rounded front edge in the seat pan?
  13. How is the seat pan attached to the ends and intermediate supports
  14. How is the seat pan attached to the seat back
  15. What kind of foam are you using in the seat pan and the seat back?  Here is a link to the Polyurethane Foam Association with key definitions.  Make sure to check out the terms density and Indentation Force Deflection (IFD).  How does the foam feel to you?
  16. How is the fabric stretched over the foam?  Check the samples for seams.  Some manufacturers have seams and some don't.
  17. How is the back attached to the seat seat and the ends?
  18. How is the cap rail attached to the seat back?
  19. What type of wood goes into the seat back?  Particle board and plywood are common materials in fabric covered pews.  When there is wood on the back side of the pew back then manufacturers will vary.  Some will use veneer over their standard material and others will utilize solid oak.
  20. What kind of foam is used in terms of density and IFD and how is the foam shaped.  Most companies offer contoured foam as an option and it does affect how the pew sits.
  21. How high is the seat back?  Make sure the sample they're showing actually is identical in terms of the dimensions.
  22. If the cap rail has splices what kind of joint do they use?  Most manufacturers work hard to avoid this, but sometimes on long pews they do have to join cap rails.
  23. Ask about fabric options, but most companies use the same suppliers.  Most fabric is polyolefin or a blend, which had a lot of issues when it first came on the market.  Today, it is very good and relatively inexpensive per yard.  Some companies really like to promote nylon fabrics or nylon blends.  Is there a backing material on the fabric?  Most fabric companies have stain resistance built-in, but ask about it anyway.
  24. Ask the double rub characteristics and learn about the warranty on the fabric.  Fabric warranty is often outside the pew contract.  If there is an issue with a fabric the pew manufacturer will refer you to the fabric mill.
  25. Ask about the warranty?  Make sure someone on your committee reads the various warranties.  If someone is offering a lifetime warranty ask them to define lifetime.  If the foam fails, if the seat back pulls away from the seat, if the cap rail comes off, if the spring breaks (in a spring seat pew), if the fabric fades within a year, if the anchors come out of the floor, etc will it be covered?  Some will and some won't.
  26. Are there any requirements on the church to maintain the warranty?
  27. What are the recommended maintenance procedures for the pews?  Are they required for the warranty.
  28. Do the pews have any labels that identify the manufacturer anywhere on them?  Most companies don't and after several generations, no one knows who made them or the fabric or the finish.  If is a good idea to put something on the underside of one of the back pews to have there or to have a permanent file on record at the church office
  29. Who does the install.  Factory trained installers are not necessarily employees of the company.  Are they company employees?  If they are not company employees, read the fine print of the warranty to make sure the pew company is providing the warranty for the installation workmanship.  Who provides the fabric warranty?  That is typically from the mill, but good to clarify.
  30. If you're planning to add more pews later, it is good to buy extra fabric in the same mill run for the additional footage.  Ask for pricing on that.  Most manufacturers leave extra stain for touch-up should ends or supports get scratched up.  Confirm that.
  31. Confirm the delivery dates and check on the storage costs if your project is delayed.  Some manufacturers are very particular when a project is delayed.  Pews take up a lot of space and if several projects are delayed at one time it can be a real problem for the company, so they charge churches for storage after a certain point. See what their policy is on this.
  32. Make sure you are in constant contact with the sales person if your church is delayed and the pew delivery has to be pushed back.
  33. Make sure your check is ready when the delivery truck arrives.  Most companies will not unload the pews unless there is a check in the drivers hand.  
  34. Have members there during installation.  People who understand construction are best. 

Now you're ready to discuss pews with companies

Ask a few of the companies that sound good to you and have them explain their pews and options for your church.  They'll typically ask questions before they come in like what is your time frame, what is your budget, how many feet or how many people are going to be seated, is it part of a remodel or a new building, are you working with an architect or a decorator, etc.  There are lots of questions that will help the sales person hone in on the solution that is best for your church prior to coming out.

You'll have to decide as a committee if the group, a sub-group or just one or two members will meet with the representatives and if you'll do it on different days, consecutively on one day or in some other fashion.  I have seen it done all different ways, but my recommendation would be to meet with manufacturers on different days and take careful notes so you can review them later as a group.  When a committee meets with multiple manufacturers on the same day there is a tendency to confuse them and the probability of this increases with the numbers of manufacturers who present.
You'll have a lot on your plate as a building committee without even considering your family life, so scheduling is hard and sometimes you're almost always facing a deadline.  So do what works best for your situation, but whatever it is take good notes and ask lots of questions.  If you don't know or if you think there is any vagueness in a response, seek clarification and take notes on that reply.  You'll go back to your notes again and again.  If you have notes you want to share on your experiences, add them to this blog.
Pew reps sell what they have and do that well or are force out of the business because they can't survive.  A person with particle board pews will talk about the advantages of engineered wood and someone with solid oak will stress that.  You'll hear lots about foam density, seat curvature, back height, anchoring systems, cap rails, seat pan construction and just about every other item that could be considered on a pew.  It's up to you as a committee to sort through it all and determine what is best for your style of worship and fits your budget.  Some companies will talk about a lifetime warranty and others a 25 year warranty.  These warranties only cover material and workmanship and don't mean a thing if the company is no longer around.  Warranties won't cover abuse, normal wear and tear and acts of God, so most companies can get out of any claim they don't want to honor.  Don't get hung up on warranty.
Some manufacturers try to get away from construction and move to the aesthetics of finish and fabric as soon as possible.  Be careful to get back to construction.  Most manufacturers have the same fabrics or similar fabrics available, so learn as much as you can about the pew construction and later move to finish and fabrics.
The next post will deal with questions for the pew companies.

Friday, September 5, 2008

Prior to looking at pews - things to discuss

If you've read the first posts on the blog and looked at some pew company sites that are listed there you probably want to narrow down your list of possible companies prior to making direct contact with them, so you don't wind up getting calls everyday from another pew company following-up on your inquiry.  So, first look at company websites, discuss options with your architect or builder and talk with churches in your area or within your faith who've gone through the process in the last few years. Try to get it down to 5 or fewer companies before making any contact.  If you're building a new building, it will probably be listed with F.W. Dodge or some other service so you'll get the calls anyway, but if you're just replacing existing pews or doing a small renovation you may fall below the pew manufacturers' radar. Prior to your discussion with the companies meet with your committee to discuss pew preferences. What is the ballpark budget?  Do you know how many pews and how many lineal feet of pews are in the building, how many people you want to seat and when do you want the pews delivered.  Don't necessarily believe the capacity that is on a plan.  I have seen drawings with people spaced every 18 inches, which is the fire code requirement.  I always recommend 20 inches for actual capacity.  Do the math yourself to verify.  Also confirm the row spacing on the drawings or in actuality.  Measure from a point on the pew in front to the same point on the pew directly behind and record the results.  Do this in three or four places in different rows to verify that it is consistent.  There is often variation in row spacing that is good to know about up front.  Typical pew spacing today is 36 inches, but it used to be a lot less.
It is also good to discuss your wants in terms of the pews.  Do you have a preference for all wood or upholstered pews.  Generally, the more fabric, the less expensive the total cost to the church, unless you have selected a fabric that is extremely expensive.  The typical pew construction options are bulleted below.  There are other options too, but you don't really have to know or discuss them prior to the initial contacts.
General pew options
  • all wood pew
  • a cushioned seat with a wood back
  • a cushioned seat with a cushion back with wood on the back side - either veneer of solid wood depending upon the company
  • a cushioned seat with a cushioned back with fabric on the back side of the pew back.
It is also a good idea to discuss pew construction materials prior to initial contact with manufacturers.  Solid wood is a term you'll hear during your conversations.  What is it?  Some manufactures describe particle board as solid wood.  Some consider plywood solid wood.  What does the committee prefer?  Solid oak or veneer.  Is oak veneer over particle board acceptable?  Veneer pews are typically less expensive.  How does your committee describe solid wood?  
Look at wikipedia for particle board, MDF (medium density fiberboard),OSB (oriented strand board), engineered wood, plywood and any other terms that a pew salesperson might throw out there.  Clarify this prior to any discussion with pew manufacturers and you'll same time.  Also know that solid wood can vary widely too.  There are solid pine pews and solid red oak pews and solid northern red oak pews and others too numerous to mention.  Discuss this with your committee members.
One other thing - the typical lead time on pews is between 90 and 120 days, so don't delay if you have a deadline approaching and want to occupy your building at a certain date.
With these general preferences outlined now you're ready to have some discussions with manufactures.